1 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:16,950 [Music] 2 00:00:23,380 --> 00:00:20,930 well I was living in Chicago and I had I 3 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:23,390 had my bachelor's degree in mechanical 4 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:27,650 engineering from Illinois Tech and I got 5 00:00:33,910 --> 00:00:29,890 drafted towards the tail end of the 6 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:33,920 Korean Conflict and I did my basic 7 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:36,260 training in Fort Leonard Wood Missouri I 8 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:39,890 called it and most of my basic training 9 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:42,800 class that gets you up to Korea but the 10 00:00:46,959 --> 00:00:45,110 army was having difficulty at that time 11 00:00:49,990 --> 00:00:46,969 in recruiting engineers in Huntsville 12 00:00:52,060 --> 00:00:50,000 Alabama but the army be in the army they 13 00:00:55,959 --> 00:00:52,070 waved their arms and about 200 of us 14 00:00:59,619 --> 00:00:55,969 showed up yong-gi engineers from all 15 00:01:02,410 --> 00:00:59,629 around the country and I understand in 16 00:01:05,890 --> 00:01:02,420 history it started in 1950 so there were 17 00:01:08,830 --> 00:01:05,900 about three different groups of 150 200 18 00:01:13,060 --> 00:01:08,840 GI engineers that came here and I was in 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:13,070 the last group beginning in 1955 so I 20 00:01:19,330 --> 00:01:16,370 really worked with the Army for five 21 00:01:22,810 --> 00:01:19,340 years 55 to 62 first two years whereas 22 00:01:24,730 --> 00:01:22,820 the GI and then as a civilian and I 23 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:24,740 worked in manufacturing production 24 00:01:32,020 --> 00:01:28,390 engineering the thing was really getting 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:32,030 more busy as we went along and actually 26 00:01:39,639 --> 00:01:36,170 a couple of years with the army I was I 27 00:01:42,219 --> 00:01:39,649 became a supervisor I was running the 28 00:01:45,249 --> 00:01:42,229 planning organization production 29 00:01:48,490 --> 00:01:45,259 manufacturing plans and even had the 30 00:01:52,149 --> 00:01:48,500 opportunity at one point to present to a 31 00:01:55,270 --> 00:01:52,159 Major General Air Force general Oscar 32 00:01:57,670 --> 00:01:55,280 ander who was from ARPA advanced 33 00:02:00,609 --> 00:01:57,680 research project agency and he had 34 00:02:03,969 --> 00:02:00,619 requested a briefing on manufacturing 35 00:02:07,029 --> 00:02:03,979 plan for the very first Saturn one first 36 00:02:10,210 --> 00:02:07,039 stage the clustered vehicle which we 37 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:10,220 call clusters last stand it had a center 38 00:02:15,490 --> 00:02:12,710 tank which was the Jupiter tank 39 00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:15,500 surrounded by eight redstone tanks and 40 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:18,100 powered by eight Jupiter engines and 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:23,090 anyway I made that presentation and that 42 00:02:26,890 --> 00:02:24,890 turned out to be rather good for my 43 00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:26,900 career in a way because we had all the 44 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:28,190 superstructure from 45 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:30,290 Marshall Center are there still the army 46 00:02:37,660 --> 00:02:34,910 ABMA came down and to be my backup and 47 00:02:42,229 --> 00:02:37,670 answer questions from general Oscar 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:44,780 the redstone and Jupiter were what was 49 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:47,010 really being worked on when I first came 50 00:02:51,350 --> 00:02:49,470 here redstone particularly and we had a 51 00:02:55,729 --> 00:02:51,360 real production line set up on red 52 00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:55,739 stones out in building 4705 and that 53 00:03:01,339 --> 00:02:57,930 continued on because when you went to 54 00:03:03,349 --> 00:03:01,349 the first Saturn Saturn one stage I mean 55 00:03:04,849 --> 00:03:03,359 you needed eight redstone tanks so we 56 00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:04,859 had a real production line for red 57 00:03:11,809 --> 00:03:09,480 stones and then netting on Brown team 58 00:03:14,449 --> 00:03:11,819 was requested to build a 1,500 nautical 59 00:03:18,379 --> 00:03:14,459 mile ballistic missile which we termed 60 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:18,389 the rets the Jupiter and so we set up a 61 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:22,470 Jupiter production line and we made that 62 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:26,310 transition from the army to NASA on June 63 00:03:32,509 --> 00:03:29,280 30th 1960 everybody went to sleep army 64 00:03:35,809 --> 00:03:32,519 employees and you work up July 1 1960 as 65 00:03:38,809 --> 00:03:35,819 a NASA employee and it really didn't 66 00:03:41,420 --> 00:03:38,819 change much for a year I mean we still 67 00:03:45,470 --> 00:03:41,430 did red stones and Jupiter's in the 68 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:45,480 early Saturn 1 first stages and but a 69 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:47,790 year later roughly and I believe was 70 00:03:52,689 --> 00:03:50,910 around April of 61 when Kennedy 71 00:03:55,580 --> 00:03:52,699 announced the lunar program and 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:03:55,590 certainly after that that thing was 73 00:04:03,530 --> 00:03:59,370 where things got very different and when 74 00:04:07,009 --> 00:04:03,540 when we became NASA the military 75 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:07,019 actually took everybody out of here and 76 00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:09,209 Von Braun was given spaces but he had to 77 00:04:14,750 --> 00:04:12,060 go recruiting in a way for our personnel 78 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:14,760 and finance and legal counsel and all of 79 00:04:20,890 --> 00:04:17,970 that business and when Brown decided 80 00:04:24,110 --> 00:04:20,900 that he needed to have a senior staff 81 00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:24,120 somewhat analogous to a chief of staff 82 00:04:30,050 --> 00:04:27,180 in the military in fun Brown asked Hans 83 00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:30,060 miles the head of manufacturing to be 84 00:04:35,870 --> 00:04:33,150 his chief of staff and hot smiles asked 85 00:04:38,659 --> 00:04:35,880 me to go along so I I joined von Braun 86 00:04:41,210 --> 00:04:38,669 staff very shortly after Kennedy 87 00:04:44,930 --> 00:04:41,220 announced a lunar program and I stayed 88 00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:44,940 in that organization all the way till 69 89 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:54,530 of course that was a big deal and and we 90 00:05:00,410 --> 00:04:56,970 immediately discovered that we couldn't 91 00:05:03,590 --> 00:05:00,420 really continue on as a an in-house 92 00:05:05,450 --> 00:05:03,600 manufacturer because we had all these 93 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:05,460 big stages that we had to get under 94 00:05:11,630 --> 00:05:09,840 contract and and so we had to think 95 00:05:16,340 --> 00:05:11,640 about that and we came up with a scheme 96 00:05:18,470 --> 00:05:16,350 of technical working groups on on every 97 00:05:23,150 --> 00:05:18,480 discipline many did many separate 98 00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:23,160 deficit disciplines and because we're 99 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:25,470 certain initially we had McDonnell 100 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:29,850 Douglas on s4b stage but eventually we 101 00:05:35,510 --> 00:05:33,690 had we had Boeing in North American 102 00:05:38,810 --> 00:05:35,520 Rockwell and the first and second stage 103 00:05:42,860 --> 00:05:38,820 as a Saturn 5 in IBM on the instrument 104 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:42,870 unit and so these technical working 105 00:05:51,190 --> 00:05:46,310 groups were trying to make some court 106 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:51,200 some standardization across the way in 107 00:05:59,360 --> 00:05:54,470 among all the different stages and 108 00:06:04,640 --> 00:05:59,370 Hunt's miles actually asked me to head 109 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:04,650 up a group on manufacturing and just 110 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:06,810 discuss or show the power of the 111 00:06:12,410 --> 00:06:09,590 laboratories versus the program office 112 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:12,420 there was a gentleman here but him as 113 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:14,970 well langa who was the head of the 114 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:19,050 program offices in our so long I thought 115 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:21,810 I was too young and inexperienced but 116 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:23,850 hot smiles wrote him a short note that 117 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:27,570 said essentially you are informed that J 118 00:06:33,380 --> 00:06:30,480 Foster is the chairman of the engine of 119 00:06:36,950 --> 00:06:33,390 the manufacturing working group and it 120 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:36,960 was startup and of course over time that 121 00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:39,690 had to change but in the program office 122 00:06:46,070 --> 00:06:42,150 became more powerful there was of course 123 00:06:48,770 --> 00:06:46,080 some power struggles if you will but on 124 00:06:51,740 --> 00:06:48,780 the other hand everybody was part of the 125 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:51,750 team and everybody really wanted to be 126 00:06:59,870 --> 00:06:54,770 tired of the team and be productive and 127 00:07:02,600 --> 00:06:59,880 to be able to do what had to be done and 128 00:07:03,429 --> 00:07:02,610 what everybody felt was what Ron Brown 129 00:07:05,919 --> 00:07:03,439 wanted done 130 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:05,929 I mean the team was very loyal to the 131 00:07:18,930 --> 00:07:16,830 Saturn one was in a way somewhat of a 132 00:07:23,430 --> 00:07:18,940 learning experience and we really didn't 133 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:23,440 have a lot of major payload certainly 134 00:07:29,580 --> 00:07:25,210 now payloads that would affect the 135 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:29,590 Saturn 5 but the Saturn 1b we flew six 136 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:31,630 Saturn one bees that had a direct impact 137 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:37,330 on Saturn five we had command module 138 00:07:44,370 --> 00:07:39,310 service modules and lunar excursion 139 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:44,380 module zin they're not complete there 140 00:07:48,030 --> 00:07:46,510 and then they're not really boilerplate 141 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:48,040 I mean they were carted to state of the 142 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:50,170 art during the development of those 143 00:07:55,650 --> 00:07:52,420 three major elements from the Johnson 144 00:07:58,290 --> 00:07:55,660 center but we flew those things in Earth 145 00:08:01,890 --> 00:07:58,300 orbit and earth vicinity I will take 146 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:01,900 that terminology and we we demonstrated 147 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:05,290 restart capability on both the service 148 00:08:11,580 --> 00:08:09,310 module and on the s4b stage which 149 00:08:14,610 --> 00:08:11,590 essentially was identical between the 150 00:08:21,830 --> 00:08:14,620 second stage on the 1b and the third 151 00:08:26,030 --> 00:08:21,840 stage on the Saturn 5 and we also the 152 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:26,040 contested a command module at its 153 00:08:31,170 --> 00:08:28,960 approximate approximating the speed 154 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:31,180 returning from the moon when returns 155 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:33,430 from the moon it's coming in at close to 156 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:37,510 25,000 miles an hour and we came close 157 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:39,970 to that by powering the command module 158 00:08:47,130 --> 00:08:44,950 with the service module we used the 159 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:47,140 service module really as an accelerator 160 00:08:52,770 --> 00:08:50,350 and so we came close so we could test 161 00:08:55,830 --> 00:08:52,780 that and we could done after separation 162 00:08:57,990 --> 00:08:55,840 from the service module you could turn 163 00:09:02,700 --> 00:08:58,000 it around and you could test the heat 164 00:09:05,370 --> 00:09:02,710 shield at those high speeds and we also 165 00:09:08,490 --> 00:09:05,380 tested the lunar excursion module I mean 166 00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:08,500 we could pick some level in the 167 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:10,900 atmosphere and say that's the lunar 168 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:12,760 surface and we could fire up the lunar 169 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:16,000 landing stage and we could pretend we're 170 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:17,890 landing at that level and then 171 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:19,810 immediately fire up the lunar takeoff 172 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:24,730 stage so we were testing the command 173 00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:26,710 module service module Unix 174 00:09:33,660 --> 00:09:29,080 in module and a third stage of the 175 00:09:37,020 --> 00:09:33,670 Saturn 5 in MO six southern one bees 176 00:09:40,620 --> 00:09:37,030 which really when later when he we came 177 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:40,630 to the first unmanned flight of Saturn 178 00:09:45,630 --> 00:09:43,270 five and and management headquarters 179 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:45,640 came up with the terminology of all up I 180 00:09:50,310 --> 00:09:48,100 mean it was all up in a sense that all 181 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:50,320 the various elements were there but the 182 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:52,720 only new elements was the first and 183 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:54,910 second stage of the Saturn five because 184 00:10:00,420 --> 00:09:57,460 all of the upper stage elements had had 185 00:10:06,030 --> 00:10:00,430 some form of actual testing in in 186 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:08,280 one major critical path of course was 187 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:12,490 the engine the big f1 engine and turbo 188 00:10:24,389 --> 00:10:17,110 pumps turbo pumps as I recall operated 189 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:24,399 like at 3,000 rpm and 2,000 psi and when 190 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:27,130 they were pumping that fuel into the 191 00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:30,790 combustion chamber they were always a 192 00:10:35,699 --> 00:10:33,300 problem and we were always having 193 00:10:38,670 --> 00:10:35,709 difficulty because they had turbine 194 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:38,680 blade I mean they were turbines and you 195 00:10:44,009 --> 00:10:42,610 had turbine blades and and a lot of 196 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:44,019 different problems he had a combustion 197 00:10:52,499 --> 00:10:47,620 instability problem and in the early 198 00:10:55,139 --> 00:10:52,509 days we had pogo we had fluid in the 199 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:55,149 tanks creeping up the sides of the tanks 200 00:11:00,749 --> 00:10:57,250 and so we came up with a temporary 201 00:11:01,999 --> 00:11:00,759 solution what we called beer cans they 202 00:11:04,379 --> 00:11:02,009 weren't beer cans they were 203 00:11:08,129 --> 00:11:04,389 approximately the size of beer cans but 204 00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:08,139 they were very clean aluminum and we use 205 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:11,470 them on the top of the fluid which tend 206 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:14,560 to damp out the the perturbations and 207 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:17,529 and that worked eventually permanent 208 00:11:26,129 --> 00:11:23,110 solution was we we put blockage on on 209 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:26,139 the sides of the tank so that the fluid 210 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:27,910 couldn't ride up the sides of the tank 211 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:30,930 it kept periodically hitting these 212 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:33,130 modules that were sticking out from the 213 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:41,319 a major decision was a tough the very 214 00:11:48,190 --> 00:11:44,390 first Saturn 1b all up Saturn use 215 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,200 me all up Saturn 5 went remarkably clean 216 00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:50,720 it was everything was pretty smooth 217 00:11:56,170 --> 00:11:53,480 almost no allow any anomalies of any 218 00:11:58,569 --> 00:11:56,180 sort and that was very encouraging 219 00:12:02,170 --> 00:11:58,579 the second Saturn 5 of a few months 220 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:02,180 later had problems we had Pogo we had a 221 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:06,529 fairly severe progo we had all five 222 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:08,930 engines of the second stage started but 223 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:11,690 two of them shut down early and also on 224 00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:15,890 the third stage it failed to restart and 225 00:12:22,329 --> 00:12:19,430 so this was rather worrying on the other 226 00:12:25,170 --> 00:12:22,339 hand we had good telemetry data and we 227 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:25,180 concluded that we really knew how to fix 228 00:12:31,870 --> 00:12:29,570 these problems so NASA headquarters and 229 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:31,880 the also all three of the center 230 00:12:37,630 --> 00:12:34,370 directors Marshall Houston Kennedy all 231 00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:37,640 signed on to the fact that we declared 232 00:12:43,689 --> 00:12:41,300 the Saturn 5 man rated after that second 233 00:12:46,269 --> 00:12:43,699 unmanned flight and then the third 234 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:46,279 flight we actually put men on board and 235 00:12:52,060 --> 00:12:49,640 that was a circumlunar flight and we got 236 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:52,070 the we got the message from the 237 00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:54,560 astronauts on Christmas Eve well they 238 00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:56,180 were circling around the moon and that 239 00:13:05,310 --> 00:12:58,250 was on the third flight and the first 240 00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:07,140 I had gone down to the Cape with my 241 00:13:15,330 --> 00:13:11,980 family and we were in that area you know 242 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:15,340 in areas rather far away from the 243 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:17,800 vehicle which is really determined by a 244 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:20,680 military quantity distance you take the 245 00:13:27,390 --> 00:13:24,520 equivalent of TNT of all that propellant 246 00:13:29,730 --> 00:13:27,400 and it tells you how far you need to 247 00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:29,740 stay away to be safe but anyway we were 248 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:32,560 out in that group and the river and 249 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:36,100 Ralph Abernathy was there and he gave us 250 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:39,670 a speech and his speech was really 251 00:13:45,150 --> 00:13:42,370 negative I mean he was he was arguing 252 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:45,160 the case that the money spent in space 253 00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:48,810 should have been spent to help the poor 254 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:52,500 individuals around the country and 255 00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:54,760 afterwards I talked to him for a little 256 00:14:00,510 --> 00:13:58,240 little bit and I actually offered him 257 00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,520 some I had a can of peanuts I offered 258 00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:02,320 him some peanuts he didn't accept them 259 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:03,820 but anyway I had a little discussion 260 00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:12,060 quite frankly we were working a lot of 261 00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:15,670 long hours and I really shouldered a 262 00:14:20,010 --> 00:14:17,740 wheel type of thing and we really didn't 263 00:14:21,630 --> 00:14:20,020 pay an awful lot of attention to most of 264 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:21,640 the kinds of things going around the 265 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:23,650 country I mean we saw it on television 266 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:25,750 every night and that type of thing but 267 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:28,710 at the same time it really didn't 268 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:31,570 intersect much with our work the one 269 00:14:42,269 --> 00:14:36,130 specific thing that really did involve 270 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:42,279 us was trying to hire more minorities 271 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:45,970 and this type of thing and we did we did 272 00:14:52,980 --> 00:14:48,850 try to do that quite quite quite a bit 273 00:14:56,610 --> 00:14:52,990 and one thing that people don't 274 00:15:00,269 --> 00:14:56,620 completely understand is for instance 275 00:15:02,730 --> 00:15:00,279 the Alabama A&M they didn't really 276 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:02,740 graduate engineers they graduated 277 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:05,920 engineering technologists and if you 278 00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:07,990 really looked in and I don't know how 279 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:09,760 their curriculum is today but if you 280 00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:11,290 really looked into their curriculum at 281 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:14,200 that time they were missing about two or 282 00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:19,390 plus or minus really key courses that 283 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:22,270 would have made them quote engineers and 284 00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:25,000 so that's one side pushing to hire these 285 00:15:29,579 --> 00:15:27,220 individuals and there were a lot of good 286 00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:29,589 individuals in that group but then on 287 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:30,790 the other side the Civil Service 288 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:34,330 regulations you couldn't hire them as 289 00:15:41,130 --> 00:15:36,760 engineers engineering technologists 290 00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:41,140 didn't quite match and so one side of 291 00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:42,520 the government is saying you can't hire 292 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:43,420 them when the other side of the 293 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:45,880 government is saying hey when yo hire I 294 00:15:51,449 --> 00:15:48,970 mean so this was real trouble we did do 295 00:15:54,329 --> 00:15:51,459 two things I think as a counter counter 296 00:15:56,940 --> 00:15:54,339 point we did send recruiting people down 297 00:15:58,980 --> 00:15:56,950 to South America and we did bring back I 298 00:16:02,910 --> 00:15:58,990 hired a number of engineers from South 299 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:02,920 America not enough to complete two 300 00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:05,110 satisfied necessarily NASA headquarters 301 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:08,500 but at least we made that effort and we 302 00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:11,290 had a computer expert at a black 303 00:16:17,579 --> 00:16:13,270 computer expert at that time by the name 304 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:17,589 of Clyde Foster and we gave Clyde foster 305 00:16:22,210 --> 00:16:20,410 a two-year sabbatical and he went to 306 00:16:25,570 --> 00:16:22,220 Alabama A&M 307 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:25,580 he established a computer department in 308 00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:28,370 a computer degree program at Alabama A&M 309 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:31,430 he did come back later and continued 310 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:33,410 working here at Marshall but we thought 311 00:16:38,650 --> 00:16:35,930 that two-year sabbatical for Clyde 312 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:38,660 Foster was very helpful and I think it 313 00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:40,850 certainly helped at the Alabama A&M 314 00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:43,940 becoming you know in sort of a major way 315 00:16:49,390 --> 00:16:46,880 in the area of computer experts Alabama 316 00:16:51,340 --> 00:16:49,400 A&M was always very interested I mean he 317 00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:51,350 thought that the computer partment is 318 00:16:59,370 --> 00:16:54,670 one one thing but they also encouraged 319 00:17:03,700 --> 00:16:59,380 their professors and others at A&M to 320 00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:03,710 come up with experiments to fly so I 321 00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:06,860 think Alabama A&M was very interested at 322 00:17:21,059 --> 00:17:17,640 he never completely agreed that things 323 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:21,069 were impossible you know they were some 324 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:22,809 things took longer to accomplish than 325 00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:26,020 others and it took you longer to find a 326 00:17:31,410 --> 00:17:28,660 solution to go around something that was 327 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:31,420 impossible but you know he was always 328 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:36,130 very optimistic and he also in his 329 00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:39,330 management style he really wanted to 330 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:44,320 hear the ideas from everybody you know 331 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:47,140 he as part of his management technique 332 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:49,390 he had developed what he called a board 333 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:51,850 meeting Board of Directors government 334 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:53,410 organizations don't have boards of 335 00:17:59,130 --> 00:17:55,030 directors like industry but he'd 336 00:18:01,740 --> 00:17:59,140 invented one and it was fairly big it 337 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:01,750 had director and deputy director of each 338 00:18:07,169 --> 00:18:04,630 of the laboratories and it had a 339 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:07,179 sprinkling a fairly big sprinkling of 340 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:08,770 the next level down from the lab 341 00:18:15,419 --> 00:18:11,770 directors division Chiefs went in the 342 00:18:21,049 --> 00:18:15,429 laboratory a division chief normally was 343 00:18:24,330 --> 00:18:21,059 the head of a technology like optics or 344 00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:24,340 computational fluid dynamics or stress 345 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:28,750 and so he wanted those guys there and he 346 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:30,850 also depending on the agenda of the 347 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:33,580 meeting this board meeting it met 348 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:35,500 regularly monthly but it could meet at 349 00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:39,010 any time and the problems that you 350 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:41,919 wanted he wanted somebody put up on the 351 00:18:47,549 --> 00:18:43,960 board originally these were paper charts 352 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:47,559 they eventually got more into view 353 00:18:51,870 --> 00:18:49,660 graphs and stuff but you could put up 354 00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:51,880 there the prime one or two problems that 355 00:18:56,570 --> 00:18:53,679 you wanted to discuss at this meeting 356 00:18:59,880 --> 00:18:56,580 and then you could put the two or three 357 00:19:02,220 --> 00:18:59,890 potential solutions to that problem with 358 00:19:05,850 --> 00:19:02,230 the pros and cons for each potential 359 00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:05,860 solution and and then he opened it up to 360 00:19:11,549 --> 00:19:09,580 the group to discuss and those meetings 361 00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:11,559 could last for one or two hours or one 362 00:19:16,289 --> 00:19:13,720 or two or three days you know depending 363 00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,299 on the magnitude of the problem and 364 00:19:21,210 --> 00:19:18,160 Werner really wanted to hear from 365 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:21,220 everybody and in particular he wanted 366 00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:24,730 the experts on that subject in the room 367 00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:26,440 and they weren't necessary 368 00:19:30,659 --> 00:19:29,200 early members of the board but he wanted 369 00:19:33,629 --> 00:19:30,669 them from wherever they were in the 370 00:19:36,090 --> 00:19:33,639 bowels of the organization or in some 371 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:36,100 cases they were at the contractors plant 372 00:19:41,129 --> 00:19:39,370 and so he would like to have them there 373 00:19:43,619 --> 00:19:41,139 because he wanted to hear what they said 374 00:19:46,049 --> 00:19:43,629 not that you would necessarily accept it 375 00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:46,059 but you wanted to hear what the experts 376 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:48,700 had to say about the particular subject 377 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:52,450 and Werner had a about an eight inch 378 00:19:59,999 --> 00:19:56,970 block of walnut in a gavel and when the 379 00:20:04,639 --> 00:20:00,009 discussion one down unwinds if you will 380 00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:04,649 he would stand up and he would repeat or 381 00:20:10,619 --> 00:20:08,320 summarize his understanding of the way 382 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:10,629 where the whole group was leaning and 383 00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:13,450 but then before he pounded that gavel 384 00:20:17,129 --> 00:20:14,830 and said you know this is the way we're 385 00:20:19,950 --> 00:20:17,139 gonna go he would look around the room 386 00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:19,960 one last time and you know anybody have 387 00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:24,220 any last minute comment and you know one 388 00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,230 day when everybody had really had their 389 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:29,200 say and in effect everybody was agreeing 390 00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:33,370 with the with the direction that Werner 391 00:20:39,869 --> 00:20:35,769 summarized and it really was a summary 392 00:20:43,169 --> 00:20:39,879 from the group and then he would finally 393 00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:43,179 pound his gavel on that walnut block and 394 00:20:49,649 --> 00:20:45,700 that was a decision for the day he had a 395 00:20:51,779 --> 00:20:49,659 staff luncheon group you know if he was 396 00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:51,789 here he was always in that if he wasn't 397 00:20:57,419 --> 00:20:54,480 here and he did do a lot of traveling 398 00:20:59,789 --> 00:20:57,429 his deputies his two deputies ever heard 399 00:21:01,889 --> 00:20:59,799 Reese on the technical side and hairy 400 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:01,899 garment on a management management side 401 00:21:07,169 --> 00:21:04,450 they had to staff luncheon with all the 402 00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:07,179 direct reports and as I recall was like 403 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:12,159 16 or so direct reports and so you had 404 00:21:18,930 --> 00:21:18,250 in a way it was a bit of a tough 405 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:18,940 luncheon 406 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:21,850 you know the 1618 people sitting around 407 00:21:26,129 --> 00:21:24,129 this table and the discussion was 408 00:21:28,649 --> 00:21:26,139 flowing around and then all of a sudden 409 00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:28,659 somebody asks a question or makes a 410 00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:30,840 comment that affects your area and 411 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:33,340 suddenly you got the ulcer lunch you 412 00:21:37,169 --> 00:21:35,049 know you suddenly got this question and 413 00:21:40,210 --> 00:21:37,179 you're on a hot seat but on the other 414 00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:40,220 hand all the key people 415 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:42,049 in the organization tended to know 416 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:44,330 pretty much everything is really going 417 00:21:50,499 --> 00:21:47,809 on in the organization and at least at 418 00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:50,509 the editin senior level and particularly 419 00:21:56,619 --> 00:21:53,809 on smiles and I being in the staff or 420 00:21:58,539 --> 00:21:56,629 the executive staff type thing it would 421 00:22:00,100 --> 00:21:58,549 particularly beneficial to us to really 422 00:22:01,810 --> 00:22:00,110 know what was going on 423 00:22:06,879 --> 00:22:01,820 more or less across the total 424 00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:06,889 organization yeah but it's it's a little 425 00:22:13,919 --> 00:22:10,460 bit that you don't really know until you 426 00:22:16,899 --> 00:22:13,929 get there type of thing that man 427 00:22:19,210 --> 00:22:16,909 historically has always clamored around 428 00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:19,220 the edges of technology I mean you go 429 00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:21,830 all the way back to you know the 430 00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:24,980 beginnings of time I mean you know you 431 00:22:29,499 --> 00:22:26,990 go to like Crystal Cove Christopher 432 00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:29,509 Columbus exploring and that type of 433 00:22:38,139 --> 00:22:35,440 you know after the first lunar landing 434 00:22:40,029 --> 00:22:38,149 things relax a bit and von Braun took 435 00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:40,039 his family and went on a vacation and 436 00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:42,289 they were gone for I don't remember yeah 437 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:45,640 exactly how long two or three weeks and 438 00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:48,770 while he was gone 439 00:22:53,549 --> 00:22:51,200 somehow it leaked out of Washington and 440 00:22:57,130 --> 00:22:53,559 he was playing to leave Huntsville and 441 00:23:02,169 --> 00:22:57,140 it turned out that Tom Paine NASA 442 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:02,179 Administrator he could see the end of 443 00:23:06,930 --> 00:23:04,250 the production line if you will I mean 444 00:23:08,889 --> 00:23:06,940 we didn't turn Saturn fives out like 445 00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:08,899 automobiles by the millions 446 00:23:15,610 --> 00:23:12,169 we flew eventually thirteen Saturn 5:12 447 00:23:19,389 --> 00:23:15,620 under the banner of Apollo and one under 448 00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:19,399 the banner of Skylab and but after the 449 00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:22,070 first successful lunar landing 450 00:23:27,399 --> 00:23:24,500 Tom Paine could see the thing running 451 00:23:29,769 --> 00:23:27,409 down there and so he knew Werner like 452 00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:29,779 this one like the dream a bit and he 453 00:23:35,950 --> 00:23:32,720 also knew that Marshall we had a advance 454 00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:35,960 project office and then we had done a 455 00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:38,740 lot of long-range planning or thinking 456 00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:42,529 in long-range area for the man part of 457 00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:45,440 the program so Tom Paine had asked 458 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:47,960 Werner to come to Washington nobody 459 00:23:52,870 --> 00:23:49,730 hadn't talented really known about that 460 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:52,880 but it somehow came loose during while a 461 00:23:58,090 --> 00:23:55,010 Werner's absence but there was some 462 00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:58,100 backing to tell everybody the fact that 463 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:00,559 he was he was leaving but he was in here 464 00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,070 he's off on his vacation and and of 465 00:24:08,169 --> 00:24:06,320 course and he I obviously talked about 466 00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:08,179 the fact that he was really going to go 467 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:12,529 and and then he asked me to join him and 468 00:24:17,019 --> 00:24:14,510 there was one other Frank Williams 469 00:24:19,930 --> 00:24:17,029 so Frank Williams and I and von Braun 470 00:24:23,019 --> 00:24:19,940 from Huntsville went up there and Tom 471 00:24:25,210 --> 00:24:23,029 Paine had given us a roughly 15 spaces 472 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:25,220 and we divided our little organization 473 00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:28,730 into three groups one group was well we 474 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:31,480 hired a gentleman from Rocketdyne and 475 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:33,890 his little group was to look into 476 00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:35,510 propulsion what kind of engines 477 00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:37,460 propulsion systems would we have in a 478 00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:40,159 year 2000 I mean we were supposed to be 479 00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:42,950 looking at a long-range plan or what 480 00:24:46,930 --> 00:24:45,200 NASA ought to look like in the year 2000 481 00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:46,940 the center group 482 00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:50,840 headed up by Frank Williams was put 483 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:53,150 together a program I mean how many times 484 00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:54,650 are we gonna go back to the moon how 485 00:24:58,690 --> 00:24:56,270 many times are we gonna go to Mars and 486 00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,700 this type of thing and it's a like 487 00:25:02,140 --> 00:25:00,320 Tinkertoys blocks you putting these 488 00:25:04,990 --> 00:25:02,150 various things in there to put together 489 00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:05,000 a program and then the third block but 490 00:25:09,790 --> 00:25:06,950 under Jim Skaggs we hired from 491 00:25:14,020 --> 00:25:09,800 headquarters and Jim Skaggs was supposed 492 00:25:16,030 --> 00:25:14,030 to put cost and schedule together in 493 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:16,040 which that's a little dicey when you're 494 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:19,130 talking about programs 30 years forward 495 00:25:24,670 --> 00:25:21,860 yet or you know from sixty nine to two 496 00:25:27,730 --> 00:25:24,680 thousand and but anyway we did all that 497 00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:27,740 and then Tom Paine and and Wernher 498 00:25:35,230 --> 00:25:32,750 wanted to have a long a long weekend and 499 00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:35,240 they picked us a wallop Space Flight 500 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:37,790 Center and there were 24 individuals 501 00:25:42,430 --> 00:25:40,730 that they invited to the Wallops for a 502 00:25:45,550 --> 00:25:42,440 long weekend to dream about the future 503 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:45,560 to talk about the future and most of 504 00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:48,290 these individuals got up and talked 505 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:50,960 about how they saw the future Arthur 506 00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:54,050 Clarke was a subida keynote speaker here 507 00:25:59,620 --> 00:25:57,110 and my remembrance of Arthur Clarke was 508 00:26:02,190 --> 00:25:59,630 he made a nice Beach you know he talked 509 00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:02,200 about the you know the vagaries of 510 00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:05,390 science fiction and then he sat down and 511 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:07,100 for the rest of the period you know he 512 00:26:12,430 --> 00:26:09,770 was sitting there but then he was I felt 513 00:26:14,170 --> 00:26:12,440 was extremely quiet because here's the 514 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:14,180 real experts getting up and talking 515 00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:16,910 about the real future and you know he 516 00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:18,710 had just talked about the fictional 517 00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:21,500 future and so he was really very quiet 518 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:24,260 but at the end of this I think it was a 519 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:28,250 five-day weekend we had lunch and early 520 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:32,810 early in the day it got the 24 521 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:35,270 individuals together and had taken a 522 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:37,610 picture of the group and during lunch 523 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:41,510 they passed around 24 original pictures 524 00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:45,290 and all 24 of us signed 24 pictures so 525 00:26:50,770 --> 00:26:49,040 all 24 of us have a original picture 526 00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:50,780 with all those signatures on it and 527 00:26:58,740 --> 00:26:55,360 that's in a way as one of the best 528 00:27:01,020 --> 00:26:58,750 keepsakes I have from a career with the 529 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:01,030 NASA while we put together the 530 00:27:06,420 --> 00:27:03,310 long-range plan into a little pocket 531 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:06,430 book sized book Tom Paine took that to 532 00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:09,640 mr. Nixon Nixon was really not 533 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:11,560 interested in told Tom Paine he had a 534 00:27:19,140 --> 00:27:12,460 lot on his plate 535 00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:19,150 both in in space and in Aeronautics and 536 00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:22,260 then he should go work on his plate and 537 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:25,390 very shortly after that meeting Tom 538 00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:29,770 Paine JumpShip he went to General 539 00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:31,960 Electric as a vice president charged her 540 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:34,900 nuclear program and von Braun to also 541 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:38,290 jump ship he decided to go to Fairchild 542 00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:42,850 industries and mrs. Gandhi at the time 543 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:46,030 in the president of Fairchild put Werner 544 00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:47,410 on the road in India 545 00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:49,720 Fairchild had a program with NASA at 546 00:27:55,860 --> 00:27:52,720 that time to put an educational TV 547 00:27:59,040 --> 00:27:55,870 satellite in synchronous orbit over over 548 00:28:01,970 --> 00:27:59,050 India and mrs. Gandhi also at the time 549 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:01,980 purchased a fairly sizable number of 550 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:05,350 bicycle driven generators you could put 551 00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:08,290 a bicycle driven generator in a little 552 00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:11,140 area and a little little village and 553 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:13,240 people could take turns pumping the 554 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:15,130 bicycle and then sit around in a circle 555 00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:18,370 in front of the TV and pull in the 556 00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:21,100 educational program and von Braun knew 557 00:28:28,350 --> 00:28:24,750 at the time actually left Huntsville 558 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:28,360 that he had cancer and over the time 559 00:28:35,370 --> 00:28:31,330 that thing really of course I got one 560 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:35,380 got worse he died in 77 he was only 65 561 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:38,530 at the time and I've often wondered what 562 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:40,330 the space program would look like if 563 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:43,810 he'd hung around to another 20 years or 564 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:47,380 so I'm 87 today and if he don't live to 565 00:28:52,350 --> 00:28:49,870 87 I think this program would have been 566 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:52,360 somewhat different I was back here 567 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:55,450 working at Marshall and von Braun was on 568 00:29:00,780 --> 00:28:57,250 the board of directors of a bank in 569 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:00,790 Decatur and I at those tie at that time 570 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:02,410 I was going back and forth to Washington 571 00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:05,530 quite a bit and I got on the airplane to 572 00:29:09,690 --> 00:29:07,030 go to Washington there was Werner 573 00:29:11,370 --> 00:29:09,700 sitting in first class he invited me to 574 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:11,380 sit down and chat with him which 575 00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:13,510 I did and then pretty soon the 576 00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:15,040 stewardess came by and looked at my 577 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:17,080 ticket and said Fleur you have to sit 578 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:21,610 back in coach and that was fine too the 579 00:29:26,190 --> 00:29:24,010 flight wasn't completely full so Werner 580 00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:26,200 got up and came back in coach with me 581 00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:28,780 and we we chatted all the way to